SNAPE: GOOD OR EVIL? The Debate.

Last edited by Ziggy on Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:58 PM; edited 1 times in total

Wow! Well done to all debaters this makes an excellent read!

I had to get in here quick before all the points were made and the chairs stacked up in the corner. I have a horrible feeling I’ll just be re-emphasising what everyone else has said or just generally talking twoddle but I’ll have a go anyway.

OK one little point to make is that though Quirrel wasn’t looking at Harry Voldemort was if you remember the angle he faced out of Quirrels head. Therefore Snape was not the originator of the scar pain, even if you do believe the saying ‘If looks could kill’.

Dragging up an old point here but why in the world did Snape save Harry’s life in PS/SS if he was evil?

Snape’s own rather feeble excuse is:

It was only Dumbledore’s protection that was keepingme out of Azkaban! Do you disagree that murdering his favourite student might have turned him against me? ~ HBP pp.35

Right…So picture the scene…

It’s the middle of Harry’s first Quidditch when suddenly his broom goes insane, down in the crowds Snape is busy cleaning his nails with his wand as a possessed Quirrel curses the bucking broom. Dumbledore as you remember is not present. There’s a sickening crash and *poof* The Boy Who Lived is now, well dead.

Now how would Snape be blamed for that murder? Why would Dumbledore, who literally trusted Snape with his life (or death depending on your angle), believe that Snape was the murderer? Dumbledore would have surely traced the owner of the curse being such an accomplished Legilimens. Snape puts on the old remorseful routine or feigned ignorance and there you have it. The brat is dead and there’s not a trace of blood on Snapes hands. It is afterall the perfect murder.

We also know that Snape did not hear all of the prophecy, therefore he would not have known about the bond between Harry and Voldemort (mark him as an equal). So there was no real reason stopping him from finishing off his masters foe. Now that would be an evil Snape moment, a cunning coldly calculated series of unfortunate events.

Yet this does not occur, what we see is a man’s constant struggle to keep a rather headstrong boy alive as he ricochets from one adventure to another. Even Harry notices in PS/SS that Snape is almost always present in his daily life. Even in his flight from the school Snape only slows Harry he does not use any curse that could cause any debilitating damage.

Oh and on the subject the only reason Dumbledore did not let Snape have the DADA job is simple, he didn’t want to lose him. The job as we all know now is cursed and it would have been ludicrous to allow his trusted spy to be removed from Hogwarts somehow. This is possibly why Dumbledore gave Snape the job in HBP, with the incentive of removing Snape from the school to fulfil some other purpose, why else would he sacrifice his secret weapon as it were?

As for Dumbledore’s death I am unfortunately a fan of the Snape under Imperius theory. Why else would he attack Flitwick and regard Dumbledore with such hatred? plausible behaviour for one who is not in control of his own body. This would also coincide with Hagrid’s account of an argument between Dumbledore and Snape. Snape refused so Dumbledore took matters into his own hands, afterall he was a very powerful wizard.

Whether or not you believe this theory the pleading in the headmaster’s voice could be seen as a request for forgiveness for condemning his companion to an uncertain future. After all who made the greatest sacrifice? As Dumbledore has that there are worse things than death.

OK, I’m going to start with a few points from the beginning and work my way through rebutting 3 pages of great debate.

First, I have to say I think Snape is truly a bad person but he is not evil. As it has been said before, The world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters. It has also been said by Inky How many good people do you know go out of their way to hurt or humiliate someone? Again, character. What about James and Sirius? They were part of OotP yet they tormented Snape just because he exists. Doesn’t sound like the actions of good people, yet they were and they were on the good side from the beginning. Just because he is petty, vindictive, and mean does not mean he is not on the good side. Look at Mundungus. He cares only about himself, he is a thief and a pretty rotten person, but he is also on the good side, much to Molly’s dismay. JK has proven over and over that everything is not as it appears. She even uses polyjuice potion to emphasize that. Sometimes you have to look beneath the surface. Time and time again Snape has proven himself.

Also, I am surprised that no one brought up one of the biggest signs DD knew about Draco’s plan and the Unbreakable Vow. If DD didn’t know about what was going on, why would he speak to the Dursleys about Harry being able to go back to their house at the end of his sixth year? He has never had to do that before, even after the dementor’s attack, so why now?? The Dursleys think Harry comes of age at 18 not 17, so they would still consider him a child. The only logical reason is to insure Harry will be safe until he is 17 because he would not be around to insure it. Second, why give Snape the DADA position knowing that it is cursed? Because DD knew that Snape was not going to be returning the next year due to the plan and nonverbal spells will be essential to defeating any DE as well as Voldie. Snape is the only one that can teach how to keep the mind shut to defeat your opponant. Even if Harry hates him, Harry will still learn to keep his mind closed from Snape even if it is only to block Snape out. Lastly, to keep Snape alive to help Harry, Harry has to hate Snape. Voldie would be suspicious if Snape and Harry were buds all of a sudden, especially after DD's death. DD could not tell anyone of the plan. How would it look if no one hated Snape after DD's death? Harry is also going to need that hatred as fuel in his final battle with LV. To use an Unforgivable Curse, you have to mean it. If you are inherently good, you have to have a lot of hatred behind something to do true evil. Harry will need a little evil behind him to do the WW good and rid it of Voldie.

Hermi said I can't conceive someone would willfully say "Bring me Snape so he can kill me." Why not? He was already dying from the potion he had to drink in the cave and from the curse on the horacrux ring. Why not end the agony sooner than later? It was the perfect time for Snape to kill him; he was already weakened. It was agreed upon beforehand, so why not get it over with? It would look good to Voldie and, since DD was weakened, no one would wonder how he was able to do it and why DD didn’t fight back.

Do you honestly think that DD values his own life more than the greater good?? DD said his flaw was valuing Harry’s happiness more than anything. What did I care if numbers of faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future? OotP Chap 37. Valuing his own life above others would also be flawed. He cannot change the prophesy, Harry must destroy Voldie. But, in the same aspect, no one but DD, and the trio (Harry, Hermione, and Ron) know that Voldie must kill Harry. That is obvious when Bella asks Snape why he didn’t kill Harry. But she is right, why didn’t he? Why protect him?? Because he still is with the OotP. It was pointed out look where it got the DE’s when they didn’t obey Voldie, if it really was his orders to leave Harry, but that was not obeying and failing the DL. Do you honestly think Voldie would have punished Snape for killing Harry and DD??

Also, I do not think Snape will be reporting to anyone anymore. It will not be needed. But he will be using his position as Voldie's right hand man to manipulate what happens. No one in the OotP is going to listen to anything Snape will say anymore, but as a skilled Legimens and Occlumens, he can put thoughts into people's heads to benefit the OotP. If Voldie can make people see terrible things that aren't really happening, why can't Snape but thoughts into people's heads that are benficial?

As for Snape and Lily, I am a huge fan of Snape's unrequited love for Lily. That being said, if Snape was such a DE and hated Mudbloods as he called Lily, why didn't he ever mention her to Harry or insult Harry in reference to her (i.e son of a Mudblood, etc.)? He never speaks of her, EVER. That to me is very telling. He must have loved her or thought very highly of her since he will not sully her memory by speaking ill of her. He has no qualms of speaking ill of James whenever he gets a chance. Everyone makes a reference to Harry looking like James but having Lily's eyes, but Snape only compares him to James. Why?? Why stay silent about Lily? Why disregard her existance?

In considering whether or not Snape is evil, it is necessary to consider what we mean by this word. I’ll spare you the full-on dictionary parsing post on the word and zero in on two points. Evil is commonly defined as being that which is “morally bad or wicked” and “causes injury to others.” How causing injury is accomplished, thus making you morally bad or wicked, is, to borrow from Nietzsche, and Lord Voldemort himself in PS actually, contingent on one’s search for and use of power. The one’s categorized evil are placed there because their quest for more and more power is never satisfied and is always to the detriment of others, not their own. The more power they have, the more they use and abuse it. The more they seek to build themselves up—to make a name for themselves. So how does this fit Snape?

I’ll not bog down this thread further by repeating evidence from Snape’s biography. My comments are as follows:

1. As a student, his notes in his potions book and the ‘Worst Memory’ chapter show he was a diligent student who wished to excel and prove himself. This is key. We know he had a group of Slytherin friends and that they targeted, most likely among others, the Marauders. Playing with his mother’s maiden name ‘Prince’ and his own blood status to create his particular nickname also reveals a penchant for recognition as well as ambition. This ambition, however, made him turn to LV as an opportunity to seek more power.

2. As a DE he must prove his worth again. LV sends him to DD to seek a position at Hogwarts and overhears the beginning of the prophecy. Dangerous spying mission. Already we see here Snape must be within the inner circle to some degree if LV’s charging him with the business of spying on DD. Snape has power. He dutifully takes this snippet of information back to LV and returns to DD with some story which DD classifies as “at great personal risk” to himself. To quickly address Birdy’s question earlier about whether or not Snape knew the Potters were pregnant, Ch. 37, The Lost Prophecy, in OotP and Ch, 25, The Seer Overheard, in HBP address this. In OotP, DD tells Harry that the “prophecy was made shortly before your birth….[o]n a cold, wet night sixteen years ago” (839, 840; US Scholastic ed); in HBP, DD tells him, “Naturally he hastened to tell his master what he had heard for it concerned his master most deeply" (549; US Scholastic ed). From here we know Snape knew Lily was pregnant. That he feigned shock and claims remorse and regret at how LV interpreted the prophecy is part of Snape’s manipulation of DD. (I’m as fond of DD as Harry is, but to say DD cannot be fooled and LV can is unrealistic—DD is human and very fallible. He can be played and was.)

3. Snape’s foray into espionage also serves to prove his usefulness. Recall, he needs to prove himself—make a name for himself—prove he’s not a coward. Cowards, after all, do not get remembered for their great acts and talents—they get remembered, if at all, for their cowardice. Snape, the Half-Blood Prince, must be remembered as a great and powerful wizard; the best potions master; the clever student versed in the Dark Arts; LV’s faithful and most useful servant who collected especially helpful information for him; LV’s trusted man; DD’s trusted man. He explodes when Harry calls him a coward because Harry has touched on Snape’s most vulnerable point—his pride. Pride in who he is, what he is, and what he has accomplished. After all, wasn’t it he who’d just murdered DD, the only one LV’d ever feared? How dare Potter question his bravery, abilities, and talents and, moreover, come after him “us[ing] my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them — I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you’d turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don’t think so” (Ch. 28, Flight of the Prince; 604, US Scholastic ed). What possible reason can Snape have to swagger over to Harry (and mind you, this is *after* the alleged final lesson in Occlumency on the previous page) if only to declare himself as the Half-Blood Prince? To claim the title he’d invented for himself and take ownership, once again, over his inventions. By using these spells, even harboring some sort affection for the HBP, Harry was usurping the persona Snape had created—taking from it the abilities and power he gained over others. To someone evil who craves power, having it taken from him/her is intolerable.

4. Fawkes, immobilized Harry, and DD’s plea. This takes us back, in part, to Kit’s question, which our opponents have yet to address satisfactorily. If Snape and DD had some pact, how would Harry’s witnessing of DD’s murder at Snape’s hand benefit Harry and the Order? How will they trust him? It is too flippant to say that in the heat of battle Snape will simply cross over and say, “Oh, sorry, chaps, I’ve been on your side all along. Shall we get them now?” without expecting a rapid AK of his own in return right then and there. Moon’s point is well taken—there will not be a happy ending for Snape. But it shan’t be because he’s sacrificed himself for the greater good. Throughout HBP, as in no other book, Harry’s intuitions and suspicions are being proven correct time and again; the only hold out is Snape because DD keeps telling him Snape’s ok, depite Harry’s continued doubts and protests. To immobilize Harry and keep him from trying to “play the hero” (he was under DD’s orders to go fetch Snape himself), to keep talking to Draco and not Accio his own wand, not to summon Fawkes to his aid, to plead with Snape, all speak to DD’s desire to prove once and for all to Harry that Snape is trustworthy, that Snape, like Harry, is “a Dumbledore man, through and through.” The result was the most spectacular blunder on DD’s part. For Snape, in an effort yet again to prove that he is not a coward and will carry through with the Unbreakable Vow and kill a man he’s detested all along and worked to undermine, AK’s him. Right then and there. Power. Oh yes, LV will be very pleased with him and trust him all the more, but none of the Order do, not anymore. Snape can once again, and does, claim his title as the Half-Blood Prince. He has made a name for himself. He wants to be remembered for what his abilities and power have wrought. To kill DD in public accomplishes this beautifully; it would not served any purpose to have attempted it in private, with no witnesses to his master stroke of evil genius.

Harry has been right about Snape all along. E. Vil. Wink

Last edited by Eruname on Tue Aug 16, 2005 04:35 AM; edited 1 times in total

The following short post is something that's been on my mind for a while and I must lay out before going to do my homework. Moon wrote, It has been the evil side's contention so far that Snape knew about the task Draco had to do.

Yes, it has. But not just that--I'm (and my team as well) are interested in asking why make the Vow in the first place? Surely, if Snape were good, he would have found someway to get out of it, taken any excuse--most obviously the excuse that it would ruin his cover as Hogwarts spy if he had to kill DD to help Draco.

Now, I know, I know, what if Snape and Dumbledore had arranged the the whole thing beforehand and this and that and [insert lots of complicated conjectures] to ultimately help Harry and kill LV?

Well, what if they didn't? Let's face it, for the most part, neither side is dealing in certainties, though it seems to me the Good Side are relying more on pure conjecture. If you can use speculative evidence, so can we. Your theory just gives a different take on the matter--it does not erase the validity of our theory.

Ah! We're stuck in a whirpool going round and round!

Call me biased for thinking the counterargument is all speculation, but really, I *want* to believe the best of Snape. He was my second favorite character until he killed my first favorite, people! I want you to wow me with your reasoning so I can resume my old Snape love without a guilty conscience!

But I'm still not convinced!

Prove to me something with evidence that can't be questioned!

ETA: v Hehe, yes of course, Moon...but do you have anything new? I read your last post, sorry if I made it seem like I was confused.

Eru, as you're admitting that both sides are relying on conjecture and you want to avoid a repeat of the whirlpool, I won't go back through the canon phrases already quoted in this thread which we believe support our case. If it was as simple as proving something (for either side) so as it couldn't be questioned, there would be no need for this debate, right? Very Happy

As for your point about why make the Vow in the first place, I believe I gave a possible reason for that in my previous post. Dumbledore and Snape knew that the former's time was coming to an end. He was about 150 years old, his reactions were slowing and he'd sustained an injury. The point had been reached where it was about the timing and trying to get the maximum benefit. Here was the chance to get Snape right back into the heart of the Death Eaters after Voldemort (and other DEs) had doubted his loyalty. It also presented the chance to save Draco. As for the point about what use Snape could be to the Order now: I would say it's not about Snape being involved with the Order - it's about Snape being poised to sabotage from within. It's about Snape being ready to help Harry in the final showdown.

To immobilize Harry and keep him from trying to “play the hero” (he was under DD’s orders to go fetch Snape himself), to keep talking to Draco and not Accio his own wand, not to summon Fawkes to his aid, to plead with Snape, all speak to DD’s desire to prove once and for all to Harry that Snape is trustworthy
Another case of evidence that can be interpreted two ways. All the circumstances you mention above are things that I would regard as strengthening the case for a prior agreement between DD and Snape. DD knows he is going to die so immobilises Harry to prevent him from playing the hero; he keeps Draco talking so that Harry hears all the relevant info and can report it to the Order; he doesn't summon Fawkes because the plan is to die; and he pleads with Snape to go ahead, knowing that when it comes to the crunch, Snape can be far more useful to Harry if he's at LV's side.

You already know why our side think Snape responds so violently to being called a coward so I won't repeat that. What I will say is that I think Pen highlighted the wrong part of this quote: Wink

“us[ing] my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them — I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you’d turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don’t think so”
I've added my own highlight here to emphasise what I think really upsets Snape. This is a man who has never been able to let go of the grudge he held against James. Snape has just killed his mentor, just done the hardest thing he's ever had to do for the good of the Order, in the hope that eventually the kid before him will vanquish LV for good - and what does Harry do? He reminds Snape of just how much like his father he is. Imagine the turmoil of Snape's emotions, the despair he must feel, the disbelief that DD has been sacrified to aid this James clone.

Regarding the points about power: I believe that it was perfectly natural for someone like Snape to crave more power than he had. If that was indeed Snape's mother and father we had a glimpse of, and if that was a regular occurence during his childhood, then Snape would feel helpless. This is a product of a certain type of family background and does not always lead to an 'evil' future. Similarly, Snape and the gang of Slytherins mentioned in GoF may have had a running feud with the Marauders but we've only ever seen Snape bear the brunt of this. Again, feelings of helplessness and craving power would be natural but not necessarily 'evil'.

I see no reason why Snape shouldn't crave recognition for being excellent at Potions and knowledgable about the Dark Arts (which isn't always a bad thing DD certainly knew his stuff) and techniques for defence against them. We all like being recognised for what we're good at.

Furthermore, the nickname he created, far from being about recognition, seems to have been one he kept to himself. What's intriguing is that he didn't just call himself 'Prince', he didn't just take his mother's maiden name; he went for Half-Blood Prince. Hardly, a name to be proud of when you're one of the few Slytherin (and later DE) half-bloods. So I'm afraid that argument doesn't convince me either.

Finally, I thought we were arguing about whether he was on the good side or not. I guess none of us would put his name down first on a guest list. Wink

We are arguing which side he's on...*giggle* I think the only thing any of us agree on is that we wouldn't invite him to tea. (...Well actually...I might invite him in order to ask what the hell bloody side he's on. But I digress.)

This something I had written earlier in the day--some responses to the other team. (Anybody sick of me yet? I still haven't started my homework.)

Moon -- To the above evidence, I would also add the non-appearance of Fawkes in the crucial scene on the Astronomy Tower. Fawkes appeared in the CoS because Harry was loyal to DD so why doesn't he appear to save DD in HBP?

Since the time I read and wrote this, Pen addressed this in a post, but I'll repeat really quickly anyway: Fawkes didn't come because Dumbledore didn't want him to, since he couldn't have imagined Snape would stab him in the back and kill him like he did. For more on that, go to her post.

Another point you made: Here was the chance to get Snape right back into the heart of the Death Eaters after Voldemort (and other DEs) had doubted his loyalty.

The thing is, nobody was really questioning his loyalty at that point except Bellatrix, and I think it comes across pretty strongly that she's just jealous because she used to be Voldy's favorite and now Snape is. And as for saving Draco...I don't know what was the point of saving a growing DE at such a cost if he (Snape) really was on the good side. (You don't have to answer that, you presented your views already, but obviously I don't agree with them :P)

Miru -- Actually, excuse me if I'm wrong, but Harry's protection wore off in the moment that Voldemort came back - in GoF - by using Harry's blood in the spell.

No, it didn't. That allowed LV to be able to touch Harry without frying, but like you said, that wasn't Harry's only protection. He also has the protection from living with the Dursleys. Dumbledore kept sending him back to renew the spell in OotP and HBP too. So, another reason why Snape couldn't have killed Harry even if he wanted to. And he most likely did/does want to see Harry dead.

Miru again--Phineas Nigellus knows more than we might think about Dumbledore and Snape's secret business?

I think he only said "I should think not" because he hates how students question authority. In his eyes, there's no way Harry's remarks could hold any truth simply because he's a kid. There have been other times when he's made similar snide comments about the inappropriate audacity Harry and the others have compared to the way students acted in his day. Maybe by that he was only giving Harry a hard time as usual. So, that doesn't prove Harry was wrong and Dumbledore right.

Sprout -- Regarding the theory Snape and DD had made not just a pact, but a UVow.

I see your point, and it's an interesting idea, but I don't think Dumbledore would have made an Unbreakable Vow with Snape, or anyone else for that matter. It seems to be a pretty evil form of magic. Punishable by death? I doubt DD--the man who's into second chances and seeing the best in people--would do that, even in such an extreme circumstance.

Dumbledore has always dealt solely in good forms of magic, i.e. protection by love. In fact, he states in HBP that LV's greatest fallacy was to think death was the worst thing that could happen to him. SO, if he did put some sort of a--for lack of a better term--insurance policy on Snape, he'd probably have something he considered worse that death as punishment. But the insurance policy doesn't sound like something Dumbledore would do at all since he was wholly convinced of Snape's trustworthiness. Without a Vow, nothing would stop Snape from betraying DD for LV, so the events at the end of HBP could mean he's evil (as opposed to just a fulfillment of the UVow like you suggested).

Mum -- If DD didn’t know about what was going on, why would he speak to the Dursleys about Harry being able to go back to their house at the end of his sixth year? The only logical reason is to insure Harry will be safe until he is 17 because he would not be around to insure it.

Yes, you are right, that is the only logical reason. It was probably clear to him his life was in danger. But not because he had told Snape to kill him--it could be because he knew he'd be traipsing round Voldy's old haunts to get the Horcruxes. Actually, there are *tons* of things Dumbledore could have seen as a potential cause of death (poor Albus). So speaking to the Dursleys doesn't really definitely prove anything regarding Snape's character.

Mum again (and, actually, everyone else as well) -- Lastly, to keep Snape alive to help Harry, Harry has to hate Snape. Voldie would be suspicious if Snape and Harry were buds all of a sudden, especially after DD's death. DD could not tell anyone of the plan. Harry is also going to need that hatred as fuel in his final battle with LV.

Dumbledore could have completely told Harry of the plan: Snape could still easily act as spy as Harry pretended to hate Snape (he did hate him even before he killed DD, anyway). As for needing to hate Snape in order to successfully AK Voldy--I would hope the fact that Voldemort murdered Harry's parents, Cedric, etc. would be a sufficient enough source of rage for the curse to work. If not, Harry doesn't stand a chance.

Still Mum -- In the same aspect, no one but DD, and the trio (Harry, Hermione, and Ron) know that Voldie must kill Harry. That is obvious when Bella asks Snape why he didn’t kill Harry. But she is right, why didn’t he?

You forget, our main man Snape also knows of the prophecy. He's the one that overheard it. So even though he's on the evil side, he wouldn't have killed Harry a) to keep his cover as LV's spy and b) because he knows it's not his place to do that anyway.

Phew! Sorry for the sheer length! Al lot of it was the quotes I was rebutting anyway; it's not thaaat bad.

Response to -
Now how would Snape be blamed for that murder? Why would Dumbledore, who literally trusted Snape with his life (or death depending on your angle), believe that Snape was the murderer? Dumbledore would have surely traced the owner of the curse being such an accomplished Legilimens. Snape puts on the old remorseful routine or feigned ignorance and there you have it. The brat is dead and there’s not a trace of blood on Snapes hands. It is afterall the perfect murder.

From Spinners End -
rumors that he {Harry} himself was a great Dark Wizard, which was how he had survived the Dark Lord's attack. Indeed, many of the Dark Lords old followers thought Potter might be a standard around which we could all rally once more. I was curious, I admit it, and not at all inclined to murder him the moment he set foot in the castle."

Sounds to me like Snape was still feeling the waters on Harry's potential as a bad guy.

And in response to what was said about the blood protection being voided the second LV used Harry's blood to resurrect himself -

Not all of that charm was nullified in those moments in the graveyard after the Tri-Wizard tournament. If that were true, than Harry would not have had to stay with the Dursleys ever again after LV's resurrection, because he wouldn't be safe there. At least some of that protection still remains if DD felt the need to make sure that Harry could stay there until his 17th birthday.

moonanddogstar wrote:

As for the point about what use Snape could be to the Order now: I would say it's not about Snape being involved with the Order - it's about Snape being poised to sabotage from within. It's about Snape being ready to help Harry in the final showdown.

Your point is well, taken, Moon, and, again, sabotage from within would be a tricky business. It may seem noble of Snape to take on such a task, but with power and recognition as a motive, where's his reward? To sit and take a back seat to Harry and let him be the one known not only as The Boy Who Lived, but the Boy Who Killed You Know Who? A man who craves recognition, as you acquiesce, doesn't step into the background when he has the chance to be closer to LV and topple him and, not only take the glory for himself, but take the power position for himself as a result. Speculation, perhaps, but it would be the grandest master stroke of Snape's maneuvering yet and the next logical step in his trajectory as 'tyrant hero' (hero, here, being a character type, not one that 'saves the day' as is commonly believed--that's only one type of hero, but I digress).

Moreover, your interpretation of the scene on the Tower, again, is contingent upon the idea of a 'plan' between DD and Snape, I get that, but it is still my contention that the lesson here, for Harry, is counterproductive. If Harry has done nothing but suspect Snape's intentions from book 1, and DD knows this and has done nothing to explain to Harry why he trusts Snape except to say "I trust him completely," how is having Harry witness DD's murder going to make Harry think Snape is on his side even if he is now no longer in the ranks of the Order? It does not make sense. All of Harry's doubts and suspicions regarding Snape for six books have just been confirmed in one act. Moreover, Snape's now garnered for himself an equal hatred from Harry, something he'd previously only harbored for Voldemort. Again, counterproductive to the cause (defeating LV) to have Order members pitted against one another so vehemently. This is not DD's style.

What I will say is that I think Pen highlighted the wrong part of this quote: Wink

“us[ing] my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them — I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you’d turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don’t think so”

That's really funny, Moon, because this just seems to prove my point even more. You say, "Snape has just killed his mentor, just done the hardest thing he's ever had to do for the good of the Order, in the hope that eventually the kid before him will vanquish LV for good - and what does Harry do? He reminds Snape of just how much like his father he is. Imagine the turmoil of Snape's emotions, the despair he must feel, the disbelief that DD has been sacrified to aid this James clone" (bold emphasis mine). As I argued previously, Harry and James usurped Snape's 'trappings'--his abilities--the things that made him the Half-Blood Prince, and having any kind of power usurped, especially by James, and then by Harry (!!), intolerable for Evil Snape.

But it isn't so much that Snape craves power, he acquires it, bit by bit, until he becomes indispensible to both DD and LV. Master stroke indeed. And how has he done this? As he tells Draco at the end of chapter 15, The Unbreakable Vow, "Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not known how to act?" (324; US Scholastic ed).

As to the nickname, while he may have created it for himself, that's exactly the point, isn't it? It was meant to bolster him until that time when he felt he could proclaim it--LV did the same and only a few knew of it while he was at school.

Egads. I can't believe I'm still awake. Must. Go. Sleep.

Eruname said You forget, our main man Snape also knows of the prophecy. He's the one that overheard it. So even though he's on the evil side, he wouldn't have killed Harry a) to keep his cover as LV's spy and b) because he knows it's not his place to do that anyway.

Snape does not know the full prophesy. He knew the prophesy had been made, though he did not know the full contents.....one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophesy...He heard only the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you. OotP Chapter 37 The Lost Prophesy. So again, why not kill Harry, especially on the same night that he kills LV’s arch nemesis? If he a true DE and wanted to cement his place of power next to LV, wouldn’t that be the way to do it? Wouldn’t that show he was completely faithful to LV by killing not only DD but killing the one person who inadvertently caused LV’s downfall? And, if he so craves power, wouldn’t killing Harry cement his position in the “World of Evil”, for lack of another term, by killing the person who caused LV’s downfall and kept thwarting LV over and over? Wouldn’t it make him ultimately more powerful than LV to say that he killed Harry, the one that LV could not even kill as a baby? He could have done what LV could not. But he didn’t. He tried to save as many people as possible. He could have killed Flitwick, Hermione, and Luna, but he didn’t. If he is so heartless, why not? What do a few deaths, especially the death of a Mudblood matter to a true Death Eater? They kill Muggles and Mudblood for sport. So, why didn’t he?

annasmum wrote:

So again, why not kill Harry, especially on the same night that he kills LV’s arch nemesis? If he a true DE and wanted to cement his place of power next to LV, wouldn’t that be the way to do it? Wouldn’t that show he was completely faithful to LV by killing not only DD but killing the one person who inadvertently caused LV’s downfall?

No, it wouldn't, because if he'd kill Harry then, he'd go against direct orders from LV. Snape himself said that Harry was to be left for Voldemort. He said so in page 563 of the UK edition of HBP:
“Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord – we are to leave him!”

Have you forgotten... That proves that other Death Eaters knew they were to let Harry live then, so LV could take care of him on his own. If Snape had kill harry, I don't doubt he'd be punished by LV.

Moreover, killing Harry with no one around to see it (remember, he's sent the other DEs away at this point and Hagrid is busy with his burning hut)--there's no glory in that. Power. Recognition. Killing DD in front of all those DEs, there was something in it for him there. His reputation will have increased having had witnesses to go and spread the word. No witnesses. No glory. No increase in power and prestige. Ergo, Harry lives.....for now.

"Moreover, killing Harry with no one around to see it (remember, he's sent the other DEs away at this point and Hagrid is busy with his burning hut)--there's no glory in that. Power. Recognition. Killing DD in front of all those DEs, there was something in it for him there. His reputation will have increased having had witnesses to go and spread the word. No witnesses. No glory. No increase in power and prestige. Ergo, Harry lives.....for now."

Um, well, Harry'd still be dead, Voldemort'd find out .. someone would have killed him, and since Snape was the one seen fighting him, I doubt that his deed wouldn't be recognized for what it was.

As an aside, I cannot help but wonder why Snape would want that damned DADA job so much, when he knows he'd only have it for one year. I mean, he already *has* the title of Potions Master, and although I know that becoming the DADA teacher might be considered a personal accomplishment, would it really be of use if he'd be replaced the following year? Or, don't tell me he believes himself to be above Voldemort's curse..

Also, by comparing Snape's behaviour as teacher with, say, Umbridge's .. you see there's a certain difference in the levels of cruelty they show. Umbridge sent Dementors after Harry and made him write with that torture-prone quill in detention .. while Snape made Ron clean up medals and honourary-plaques and whatever else, and Harry alphabetize stuff. Now, tell me, who sounds more evil?

Sorry about the randomness of this, I have a major headache again and took an hour to read the few new posts *dies* ..

Except that he's told the DEs LV wants him for himself, as both Tara and Loe have pointed out. So if he 1) kills him in private, no glory, power increase for Snape; 2) kills him when LV wants to do it, risks seriously pissing off LV, hence no glory, no power increase for Snape. Either way, it's a lose, lose situation.

I hadn't realized we were back to Snape's teaching methods, but if you wish to go there, I'll take it up. As a teacher, as I've said elsewhere, his methods aren't the best; his students may learn, but they learn out of fear and his abuse of power at times. This, again, goes back to support the definition of evil I introduced yesterday, "Evil is commonly defined as being that which is 'morally bad or wicked' and 'causes injury to others'...The one’s categorized evil are placed there because their quest for more and more power is never satisfied and is always to the detriment of others, not their own. The more power they have, the more they use and abuse it." How much they abuse their power, or the degree to which they are evil, depends on how much power they've gained, or what position(s) they hold. This is WAY off topic but you can see this in Umbridge who enters Hogwarts having been a Ministry employee in the very upper echelons, hence her brand of cruelty and evil are, as you say, on a different level.

As to the DADA position and it's being cursed, and does Snape think himself above LV? Well, it certainly seems that way, doesn't it since he's been angling for that position since the moment he set foot in Hogwarts? How else do you explain vying for the position year in and year out? Ego stroke. More power. It can be very blinding, the desire for power.

Last edited by Mirunika on Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:59 AM; edited 3 time in total

" As to the DADA position and it's being cursed, and does Snape think himself above LV? Well, it certainly seems that way, doesn't it since he's been angling for that position since the moment he set foot in Hogwarts? How else do you explain vying for the position year in and year out? Ego stroke. More power. It can be very blinding, the desire for power."

This might seem to be it, yes, then, what about this:

"'Do not say the Dark Lord's name!' spat Snape. (...) 'Dumbledore is an extremely powerful wizard,' Snape muttered . 'While he may feel secure enough to use the name ... the rest of us ...' He rubbed his left forearm, apparently unconsciously, on the spot where Harry knew the Dark Mark was burned into his skin." (OotP - page 470)

Sorry, but as I see it, that stride for glory might be a tad overrated. The images of him at Hogwarts can be very well interpreted as Snape wanting to be the best HE can be. Working hard, pouring over his books .. at that age striding for glory as you put it should have shown him a bit more like teen-Tom. The title .. I believe, kept him around the little club Sirius mentioned him hanging around with. Snape can't be compared to Malfoy and his Slytherin gang .. Snape wasn't very liked - as Harry noticed in the Penseive scene; while Draco has a certain something even among the students from the other houses. Snape had to work a bit harder to be liked.

Also, another 'proof' of seeking glory you have in mind is, I believe, the possibility of getting an Order of Merlin for catching Sirius in PoA .. and how mad he was when Sirius got away. Well, what if we were given that bit only to side-track us? Snape hated Sirius enough to want to give him over to the Dementors even without a reward. That would have been a mere bonus.

That, coupled with all the people he could have killed but didn't shows me, at least, that he can't be twisted enough - see Bella - to choose the DE side in the long run. He did so once, went down that road when he was young and easily swayed to that side - not unlike Draco, actually - .. but I stand by my belief that he has seen the light, as Dumbledore believed, and shall stand by the good people in the end.

And Eru, I believe it might be a bit hard to bring 'hard evidence' for our team to equal Snape having killed Dumbledore, which is the point where the evil vs. good debate lit up. While your case might seem set in stone through that, ours is based on the little things that are spread out throughout the books.

A circumstancial case, but a strong one nonetheless. It might be a bit difficult, though, for someone from the other team to see the evidence as presented from our side, but I'll do my best to see you on our side and us winning the battle. Razz

No, it wouldn't, because if he'd kill Harry then, he'd go against direct orders from LV. Snape himself said that Harry was to be left for Voldemort. He said so in page 563 of the UK edition of HBP:
“Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord – we are to leave him!”

Have you forgotten... That proves that other Death Eaters knew they were to let Harry live then, so LV could take care of him on his own. If Snape had kill harry, I don't doubt he'd be punished by LV.

Nope Loe, I have to disagree on this; that he says 'have you forgotten our orders' can also be interpreted in two ways. First: your way of course; Second: it only proves that 'not leaving Harry' (to say it in HBP words,) wasn't an order. (Meaning that the orders they got, didn’t involve taking/hurting Harry) Of course LV has once given this order, but I don’t really think that he has given that particular order before this scene again. It was just about killing DD and had nothing to do with Harry; who would have thought Harry was at that very moment with DD anyway? It kind of was in the middle of the night you know, and most people are sleeping then! Anyway, this is again speculation from both sides, and (of course) we all believe what is best for our side. It is a cause of trusting Snape’s words, and I, for one, don’t believe that Snape is speaking the truth. You’ll find evidence on that in the second chapter of HBP, where I pointed at two times before. For that chapter I’d like to go back at what Eru said:

But I'm still not convinced!

Prove to me somethingwith evidence that can't be questioned!

I already did twice before Eru. Or well, not evidence that can’t be questioned (I bet you evil-guys can) but you didn’t try till now. I’m still convinced that what Snape said there is one bunch of lies, and that is why I question the other things he says too. You guys are saying things are ‘proof’ when Snape has said them. Well, I don’t think those things are ‘proof’ actually, when he convincingly lied before.