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Unused Clues - what are we missing?

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#1: Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: CatholicVegan , Location: Azkaban, lower level, cell block D3

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:13 PM
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Well, I've read a number of posts here and didn't find this topic anywhere. So here it is:

There are numerous clues that are not used in the book. JKR's style is such that when she introduces a "clue," ie object, modus operendae, etc., she uses it later. Here is a collection of clues that I feel were not used. Feel free to comment or add your own.

1. The Ministry's advice to make up questions to check for Polyjuice.

Aside from Mr. & Mrs. Weasley asking eachother questions, this advice is not followed. Dumbledore even states to Harry that he didn't verify his identity when he goes to pick him up(Hint Hint Hint - DD is not DD perhaps??) Also, the only time the Polyjuice potion is used is with Crabbe and Goyle. Their use seems peripheral to the plot. I am lead to believe, as many of you probably feel, that there are numerous imposters at Hogwarts. In fact, when Harry uses the Map, it is strange that he doesn 't mention anything about the teachers, especially DD. In fact, DD was gone quite often, even while Harry was using the Map. Yet, he didn't notice this fact, even though he was using the map.

2. Fred & George's "shielding clothes."

It is mentioned that they came up with a whole line of defensive items. I believe that "Snape," if he was Snape, was using them in the final battle. It seems that all of Harry's curses bounced off of him. Speculation: did they come up with some type of clothes that can block Avada Kedavra?(ie when DD was hit by Snape)

3. The fact that Harry did not attend the "Slug" dinners seems particularly important.

However, I am not sure why.

4. Kreatcher and Dobby don't report a second time.

Is it possible Kreatcher was faking being Harry's? Dobby goes to sleep for the first time in a week after he reports. He is not seen again. Did someone subdue Dobby?

5. It doesn't seem that Harry is being prepared to face Voldemort.

DD's lessons with Harry, however important, don't seem up to par with training someone to fight Voldemort. In fact, I am agast as to how little it seems Harry learns in this book in terms of magic. It almost seems that Harry is completely unprepared to face Voldemort, although he learns that he must destroy the Horcruxes. His only seemingly large advancement is in Potions and wordless magic. Come on - in PoA he made a Patronus that drove away an army of Dementors. Now, learning how to cast spells silently is a huge leap for him? I think not - he has already done that before - by accident no less.

6. Harry seems weak, almost powerless.

There are numerous times that Harry seems to have recessed back to first year. He is unable to repel the Inferni(sp?) because he forgets about the fire, although he casts many spells. Harry seems near powerless in the final battle scene.

7. Despite the introduction of the new minister, he doesn't seem all that involved.

Perhaps it is just me, but I think that the new minister is working behind the scenes. For JKR to introduce him in the first chapter, prerelease his description, and have him once-in-a-while try to get Harry to come to the Ministry, he seems rather uninvolved in the plot. Being head of the Aurors previously, you'd think he'd have done more. I bet he has been VERY involved, just behind the scenes. Piece together the clues.

8. Breeding Dementors

It's mentioned fairly early on that the Dementors are breeding. Attacks by dementors are littered through the book. However, she never actually describes another dementor attack nor has Harry or any main character encounter them. In fact, the green mist(was it green?) that is mentioned as Dementor breeding fog(or something like that) seems very similar to what the potion was in the underground cave that DD drank. Is there a connection here?

It's late and I can't think of anymore. However, please post more missing clues that aren't used. I feel rather like this entire book is similar to the first 3/4th's of Goblet of Fire. IE, a massive hidden plot is lurking under the surface, soon to be exposed. It also seemed to drone on and on (with mostly filler) until Harry got the Memory from Slug.

Thank you,
Sam B.

PS: I've read a bunch of posts, and didn't see these ideas being talked about. I'm sorry if this is a post that is a copy of another.

#2: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: Accio Padfoot , Location: Right here in front of the monitor.

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:20 PM
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I noticed something -

She always lets us "see" the "bad guy" in Chapter 13. This time, it was Riddle in the orphanage; no surprise there.

She always lets us "see" a significant "good guy" in Chapter 12. The students are in Hogsmeade. Other than the regulars, the only characters we see are Mundungus, and even more briefly, Tonks.

9. WHAT THE HECK was really going on with those artifacts? Are we really supposed to believe the obvious? Or do you all have a chapter that resolves that, that isn't in my book?

10. And also unresolved clues, DDs comment about the mouth organ only being a mouth organ.... does that mean something else in that box was more important?

11. The files of rule breakers: Damn, couldn't Harry glean *something* from them?! Perhaps they'll be important in the next book. I kept waiting for him to get to "Riddle" but at the very least, more Marauder mischief should have surfaced!!

#3: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: N A Tonks , Location: Wherever the Army tells me I live.

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 09:29 PM
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Is it just me, or does anyone else think that this book has the feeling of one of the HP movies? You know that kind of atmosphere that there was so much more information about plot/characters that couldn't make the cut due to time constraints. The more I think about it, it seems like JKR's imagination would normally have covered all these sticking points. I wonder if being pregnant, giving birth and then dealing with a newborn has really, really changed her writing style. This book seems more scatterbrained than any of the others heretofore. Far too much is left hanging from previous books as well as within this one. ::sigh:: I think I'm going to go weep quietly by myself for awhile..........

#4: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: HollyGolightly

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 09:45 PM
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The breeding dementors thing? This isn't exactly sufficient but it's a pretty darn good theory... Okay I'm to lazy to look up the exact quote (maybe later) but someone (maybe Dumbledore) says that dementors suck the life out of you until you become something like them, souless. Well, perhaps how it works (not unlike the bite of a werewolf) is that the dementors kiss you and you transform into one of them (albeit, slowly because Crouch Jr. was kissed and he didn't automatically transform!)

#5: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: alleirbag

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 09:50 PM
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Quote::

4. Kreatcher and Dobby don't report a second time.

Is it possible Kreatcher was faking being Harry's? Dobby goes to sleep for the first time in a week after he reports. He is not seen again. Did someone subdue Dobby?

Did anybody notice when Harry said "Get out of it" to Kreacher after K called Hermione a mudblood? I thought that might turn into another case of Kreacher thinking it was a call for dismissal because of the use of the words "Get out", but it never turned out to be anything. Perhaps I misread it. I will have to get my copy back off my sister once she has finished reading it so that I can back my points up...

#6: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: HollyGolightly

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 09:56 PM
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OH, I entirely agree with you, N A TONKS! It didn't have as much HEART (not that I'm complaining, it's nice to get info)! Oh I'm elated I'm not the only one who feels that way! It's like everything that we had theories about she had to get out (Harry/Ginny, Tonks/Lupin, Ron/Hermy, the first chapter, DADA prof., Harry and Ron's career...) everything seemed to slip in place automatically, with no struggle whatsoever!
Also did the Half-Blood Prince seem that important (I know he murdered Dumbledore and that's VERY important) but, it's like only the end where he's really pertinant!
Did all the characters seem as defined as usual? I was actually kind of dissapointed to many twists and not enough time to focus on them.
Oh well, I'm going to go read it AGAIN and write down all the clues I come across!

#7: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: HollyGolightly

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:36 PM
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Also, (I might have missed something afterall, I was very sleepy) WHERE did Godric's Hollow come from? Harry said he wanted to visit his parents graves there... But, where did he get that idea from?
Another also, WHY, oh why, did Harry have to break up with Ginny? Ron and Hermione are doing all this dangerous stuff with Harry. Do you think Ginny will go to? If, love is something Voldy doesn't understand wouldn't it strenghthen Harry to be with Ginny?
Yet another also, (sorry my brain is on high speed) if Snape *grrrrr* could easily deflect all of Harry's curses how will he ever conquer Voldy? It sounds like Harry will need some sirius (sorry again, couldn't help it) training before he can face Voldy and Snape!
I'll leave you on this note, I know this seems certain and I have ALWAYS despised Snape but is he definitly evil? We could be in for one HUGE shock when book seven rolls around...

#8: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: Blaise_Zabini

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:28 PM
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12. Trelawnys absent minded prediction when reading the tarrot cards, turned out to be true, so shouldnt we listen to her more? she also mentioned something about a dark stranger, but my sister has the book, and i cant remember the exact details (or the place in the book) But harry over hears her when going to dumbledores office... i thought that kinda seemed important as she draw the lightning struck tower, and thats what the chapter is called that DD dies in...i didnt over look that...

#9: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: Maddie , Location: The Natural State!!

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:38 PM
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Look, I'm not defending Snape or anything and the evidence does not seem to be pointing anywhere that would shower him in good light, but I find myself wrestling with the fact that the only reason he did what he did was because he was under orders from Voldemort. Snape is a nasty, nasty character, and I wanted just as bad as anyone to throttle him when he did what he did, but I have (or want) this gut feeling that those last seemingly pleading words Dumbledore uttered had some different meaning than we think. I am aware of the expression the book said Snape aqcuired while looking at Dumbledore, but I STILL just can't... I can't see why or how... I just feel there has to be some explanation, but then again, I could just be a closet Snape-lover. Razz

But, then again again I could never love Snape as much as I loved Dumbledore. *sighs* My two favorite characters...

Quote::

I believe that "Snape," if he was Snape, was using them in the final battle. It seems that all of Harry's curses bounced off of him.

I don't think Snape was using any shield charms just then. He is a Legilimens and some of those were his spells. He must have been into Harry's mind... As I recall.

Quote::

"Blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

Which meant he was also probably refering to the non-verbal spells he had been trying to teach everyone all year. I think he was simply either using Legilimency or had the reflexes to figure out which spell Harry was using because Harry was shouting them.

On another note, I don't think Harry seemed weak an powerless at all. Forgetful, yes, but weak and powerless, no. Personally, I think more emphasis was put on Dumbledore's growing weakness, which was a hard-hitting bit of foreshadowing. I really, really didn't like the scene in the cave. The way Dumbledore talked, even if he was under the influence of the poison, was unsettling. Was he reliving some sort of memory or was in physical pain he was going on about? Either way, it was hard to imagine Dumbledore saying all those things. I sure do HOPE it was just the poison...

And about the book, I agree with Tonks. It seemed a lot more mysterious than the previous books (and that's saying quite a bit). It didn't really answer long-asked questions, only ones that arose when the book title and the random snippets came out, such as "Who is the Half-Blood Prince?" of course and "Who is like lion-like fellow?" or "Who or what is Felix Felicis?". All of which didn't have much to do with the previous books. The identity of the Half-Blood Prince didn't help us, it just satisfied our hunger. Finding out who is was didn't really matter did it? All it told us was that Snape was, in fact, a half-blood and that he was great at potions. If I'm over looking something about this HBP business, I'm very sorry, but I find it rather frustrating. The news of a new Minister was helpful, but also didn't answer anything very earth shakering and the discovery of what Felix Felicis was was also intersting and neccessary, but only for book six and maybe seven (though I think Ginny, Ron and Hermione finished it off.). It's all very, very frustrating.

One very good thing about this book is that we now know how to defeat Voldemort and that is what it is all about in the end. I'm not losing a bit of faith in JKR, despite what I may sound like. I really think the seventh will be more than I can ever imagine. I got a funny feeling in those last few paragraphs of the book. It was like the feeling I got at the end of the Two Towers (so sorry for dragging LOTR into this, heh). I can't really describe the feeling but it's what you would feel before setting off on a great adventure. I realize I should have experienced this feeling probably at the end of the first book, but only now do I feel that almost sick feeling knowing that it's going to end with the next book. The excitement has been there, but not this. Sorry for my over-indulgence in the word "feelings" or "feel" but I certainly have a whole mess of them right now...

#10: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: aislynn , Location: Unplottable

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:08 AM
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HollyGolightly wrote:

Yet another also, (sorry my brain is on high speed) if Snape *grrrrr* could easily deflect all of Harry's curses how will he ever conquer Voldy? It sounds like Harry will need some sirius (sorry again, couldn't help it) training before he can face Voldy and Snape!
I'll leave you on this note, I know this seems certain and I have ALWAYS despised Snape but is he definitly evil? We could be in for one HUGE shock when book seven rolls around...

I think part of Harry's problem with Snape was that he was saying all of his spells aloud. Snape already knew Harry was bad at nonverbal spells and (most likely) took advantage of this by shileding as soon as he saw Harry open his mouth. Harry should have worked harder on his DADA homework.

As for Snape being truly evil...I have mixed thoughts. As we know Snape did make an unbreakable vow in the beginning of the book, and later we found out if you break and unbreakable vow you die (how you break an unbreakable vow is beyond me). Perhaps Snape thought that he had to remain alive to contribute to the Order and protect Harry (though I don't see why Snape would want to protect him) so he saw killing Dumbledore as the only way of doing that.

Also has anyone considered that Dumbledore knew of the vow Snape had made. I mean killing Dumbledore would make Snape very popular with Voldermort wouldn't it. Maybe give him access to more information for the Order. However since Harry is telling everyone left and right that Snape killed Dumbledore then Snape wouldn't exactly be welcomed back by the Order as he did kill their leader.

Anyway those are just my thoughts.

#11: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: leanorathelegen1 , Location: Chipping Sodbury,England.

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 02:05 AM
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Maddie:

Quote::

Snape is a nasty, nasty character, and I wanted just as bad as anyone to throttle him when he did what he did, but I have (or want) this gut feeling that those last seemingly pleading words Dumbledore uttered had some different meaning than we think. I am aware of the expression the book said Snape aqcuired while looking at Dumbledore, but I STILL just can't... I can't see why or how... I just feel there has to be some explanation, but then again, I could just be a closet Snape-lover.

Now, this is just a guess, but i'm thinking that maybe there was something else behind it. From all the talk of DD getting weaker (JK was constantly reminding us of this), perhaps DD knew that he was "not long for this world", and that if (as has been theorised already in other threads) Harry was ever going to stand up to the plate, face the reality that he would have to "kill" Voldemort (he's only known it since the end of OoP, so it hadn't really sunk in), and do what needs to be done ( learn things 'ways to defend and attack', go places, search for the other horcruxes), he would have to die. And maybe just maybe, he had confided something like this in Snape, so that when he arrived at the tower, the look of revulsion and hatred that was etched on his face, was not towards DD, but to what he knew he had to do. Was being forced to do. He only did it after DD had pleaded. Sort of-"Do it....do it now....you have to...it's the only way..".

And perhaps the reason Snape was trying to teaching them non-verbal spell casting, was in case of a situation like the one at the gates between H/S. Maybe he was telling Harry something when he said:

Quote::

"Blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

y'know something like "If you ever hope to defeat Voldemort, you will have to learn n/v spell casting and occlumency. Or you will fail".

I'm NOT saying he's a good guy, he's clearly not. But that he is, and has been since the night the potters were killed, on the Orders side, and to have the rest of the wizarding world believing that you are truly a death eater, would be enough to seal his role as the "good" guy on the inside.

Well, it's just a theory and i'm probably completely wrong. But then i always did want to see the best in people. "sucker"!!!!!

#12: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: lupinsangel , Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 02:45 AM
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About the first point that CatholicVegan made and about how Dumbeldore might be someone taking Polyjuice potion... I wish it were true but I believe that the portrait appearing in his/McGonagall's office is definitive proof that he really is dead. I think was said in an early book (no idea where or which one) that those were portraits of dead headmasters and headmistresses. If it was merely said that they were of former heads... I still think we can conclude that Dumbeldore is dead because he would not have truly left for any other reason.

#13: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: Accio Padfoot , Location: Right here in front of the monitor.

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 02:55 AM
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Quote::

If, love is something Voldy doesn't understand wouldn't it strenghthen Harry to be with Ginny?

It might strengthen them as a team, yes. But I think Harry has to do this on his own. And if Ginny is captured by D.E.s, it's a weapon that can be used against Harry. I think that's the idea, anyway.

#14: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: Maddie , Location: The Natural State!!

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 05:50 AM
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Heh, yes I went back and read up on all the theories between Snape and Dumbledore. I am very pleased to see that others share my view that Snape isn't evil.

Ah, yes and the quote. I agree now that they do sounds awfully like advice. I think it seems like a very JKR thing to do, having Snape teach the students non-verbal spells so they could better defend themselves against the Dark Arts. I mean, he was doing his job, Voldemort can't punish him for that.

#15: Re: *Spoiler* Unused Clues - what are we missing? Author: leanorathelegen1 , Location: Chipping Sodbury,England.

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 06:01 AM
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Another thing i was thinking of, about Snapes "advice", is if it wasn't advice then why did JK have him use those words?
He could have just insulted him or bandied some other Snapeism at him, but he didn't, he practically told Harry what he needed to do, to learn.
It seems like too much information to give the person that his "beloved master" wishes too kill. Information that, if he took notice, could prevent that from happening.

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