THE OFFICIAL OFFICERS DEBATE: Lupin vs. Sirius

And we're off! Debate began January 31st! To comment on this debate, go here.

<center><img src="http://pages.prodigy.net/darkpixie/magobi.jpg]</center>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub39.ezboard.com/umagicalobizuth.showPublicProfile?language=EN>magicalobizuth[/url]  <IMG SRC="http://pages.prodigy.net/darkpixie/wand.jpg[/img] at: 2/1/02 1:36:17 pm

Oh, do I feel silly, rushing home, worried the whole thing had started without me already...to find that no one has even posted here yet.

Hurry up everyone!

Of course, that doesn't quite help, because of the simple fact that you won't even read this until you are here, so think of this as a reassurance that I, Harrysrockerbabe am here and ready...and I'm waiting.

I am also here...*waves* I think us Siriusers should cast the first argument, no? The Lupinites surely won't disagree, since they always think they areso great. They can apparentlyanswer to anything. But, I will wait for some Lupinites to show up...*grins*

You bow to the Prez. Now!

Waiting for us? How kind of you.

I can start if you like. What shall we discuss? Personality, and how many flaws Sirius has compared to Remus? Or do you want to discuss actions and how Remus has done what he has to do acording to the situation at hand while Sirius ...*giggles*

~Liz~

*waiting for Hermi to say something

Right. No, I think I will pass the grand opportunity to have the Lupinites start by starting myself.

Let's see, where to start... There is so much. *laughs* How about how Remus went away at the first sign of troubles - when Severus revealed him to be a werewolf - while Sirius always stayed at Harry's side, even though he risks being killed or soul-less? Remus could have stayed. The worst he would have gotten would have been some letters by parents. Big deal. Dumbledore says he gets letters every week about how heruns the school. Isn't that more important than the DADA teacher? While Sirius even revealed himself as Padfoot... Remus went away when troubles arose. Sirius stayed right there - came even closer to Harry - and cared about taking care of him.

Don't know if you got my point... *laughs*

You bow to the Prez. Now!

Yes, I deffinately see your point, Hermi.

Of course, I see reason in Remus' perspective...don't you?

Everyone has the right to be scared, I mean...who said Remus couldn't just cower in his little flat, or whatever it is he lives in? Whether it be a cardboard box, or a one-room appartment, it must be a sanctuary compared to his troubles! What esle could he do, other than push them all away and leave?

Oh, I know! He could have actually faced all of his persecution of being a werewolf and stay. He supposedly left Hogwarts for the sake of the student mass...to keep them safe, of course! However, there are a million alternate things he could have done to make sure something terrible could never happen.

But he just left...why is that, oh wise Lupin Fans?

Would you care to enlighten me?

<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil] Crimson Weeper, at your service.

... Not.

Post subject: Precisely! Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2002 05:39 PM

That was my point in the "who had it worse" topic. Remus' low self esteem and weakness in character does not allow him to confront the hard knocks of life. At the first sign of trouble, Remus dissapears:

- When James and Lily were killed, where did Remus go? Was he too scared? Why wouldn't he go and check up on his best friends' baby?

- When everyone finds out he's a werewolf at Hogwarts, instead of confronting it all, and use that experience for self-empowerment and the empowerment of good werewolves everywhere, he decides that he should leave "for the good of the students". He's too scared that he won't be able to control himself. Dumbledore had confidence in him, why doesn't Remus have it in himself?

- And worst of all, his everyday life. He pities himself, he goes day-to-day suffering because of his monthly destiny. He needs to make a life for himself that he feels proud of. He has been given opportunities, and he can get them himself, but he chooses to ignore them and travel in the downward spiral of self-pity.

Poor Remus.

Sirius, on the other hand, had enough self worth and determination to not let Azkaban kill him. He managed to escape because as soon as he knew that Peter was alive and close to Harry, he had to go and protect him. And he continues to do so, put himself in the line of fire to protect and advise Harry quite frequently.

Post subject: Re: Precisely! Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2002 06:19 PM

Okay. Enough. I have to say something ....I'll try not to go on about the topic forever to give my fellow Lupin fans a chance. But ..I can't stay quiet.

The thing with Remus is that he is doing what he thinks it's right. Leaving Hogwarts is not something he wanted to do. He is not doing it because he is a coward. He is doing it because he thinks it's the best thing to do. And he is strong enough to make the desicion.

Is it wrong? I won't get into that argument now. I do want to hear one of the alternatives Caterz...I want to know what you think he could have done ..if you are wiser than him

Post subject: Gally, stay quiet? HA! *winks* Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2002 06:52 PM

If you can't stay quiet, youknowI won't either. <img src=http://www.3dpcgame.com/cwm/s/contrib/lynx/pinkbiggrin.gif>

What was right, Gally dear? But who knows what's right? We could go on forever on "what-ifs". This is not the point. The point is, Remus, despite the fact he had no better reason to give for leaving than "it's for the better", left. How's that for a reason? I think Remus just left because he was not strong enough to stand the events. It wasn't for the better. The better would have been to stay there to protect Harry and do his job as a DADA teacher.</fiont>

You bow to the Prez. Now!Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub39.ezboard.com/bsiriusblackfanclub.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=hermione20>hermione20[/url] at: 2/1/02 2:53:33 pm

Post subject: Re: Precisely! Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2002 09:14 PM

Gally, hun...I think you meant me, HRB, not Caterz...because I haven't even seen her post in the dabate anyway.

-laughs- Yes, alternatives. As in, things Remus could have done instead of leaving Hogwarts. I don't think that if I give you examples of some, that would make me smarter than he, I just think it would prove a point, plain and simple.

Hogwarts was in need of his assistance, and after everything Dumbledore did for him, and after everything he owed him in return, he left it all behind. I mean, who was teaching the Defense Against the Dark Arts classes in their second year? That imbecile, Lockhart. However, on comes this great proffesor, who the students admire and respect...and he just leaves? I'm sure the students, well...maybe all of them but the Slytherins, wouldn't have really cared whether or not he was a werewolf. It all came down to the parents, didn't it? Well, I'm sure that could have been dealt with. They could have assured the children's safety by making sure Remus drank the wolfsbane potion everytime he was in need of it, everytime he was supposed to take it. Hell, even Muggles could have taken care of that. Wizards, these smart fellows could have come up with a better plan, whether it was having someone supervise him before, during, and after the full moon, or finding a spell or potion which would make him vulnerable towards it. He would have to take it...wouldn't that be better, for everyone anyway?

Anything. Anything but leaving.

You saw how Harry tried to convince him. Remus would not even let the idea of remaining at the castle seap into his mind, before denying the possibility.

It was sheer stubborness.

If Remus hadn't left, Crouch would have never filled in the place of the DATA teacher...Cedric would have never died, and Harry's name wouldn't have been picked out from the Goblet of Fire.You say that what lead Sirius out of Azkaban once and for all was revenge. I will admit that this was part of it, but in order to feel revenge, you must first love what was taken from you. Remember that.

<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil] Crimson Weeper, at your service...

... not.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub39.ezboard.com/ucrimsonweeper.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Crimson Weeper[/url] at: 2/1/02 5:16:13 pm

Post subject: Re: Precisely! Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2002 09:22 PM

I was close. It was the C that confused me

Muggle Joined: Feb 01, 2002 Posts: 12

runs the school. Remus would get letters about how he could kill the students!why knows how it feels to be bitten, for him to bite a student is the worst possible experience he could get. Plus what is there to do about Harry? If Dumbledore and Hogwarts can�t protect him, then there is nothing Remus could do to save him from Voldemort. Sirius couldn�t protect Harry in GoF either. If Remus stays, he might harmHarry and his classmates, not to say protect him.

Whew. Long post. Later, my HP friends...



~Ice

Loyal Remus Defender

We fight for the truth!Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub39.ezboard.com/bsiriusblackfanclub.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=icefire>icefire[/url]  <IMG SRC="http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_fire.gif[/img] at: 2/2/02 6:15:42 pm

Ice ...I like that.

"Loyal Remus Defender ...We fight for the truth!"

Muggle Joined: Jan 31, 2002 Posts: 7

All the Sirius debaters are speaking as though Remus actually had a choice in staying or leaving, when in actuality...he didn't. Please hear me out. Dumbledore is headmaster, and therefore has a great deal of decision-making authority. He does not, however, have complete control over all Hogwarts matters. He answers to the Ministry for the decisions he makes. Think of it in terms of our schools...a principal makes many decisions and even hires his/her own staff...but still has to answer to the school board and the school superintendent.

Because of Dumbledore's reputation and integrity, he's been given a lot of leeway. We've also seen the Ministry step in on occasion. The main instance being in CoS when Dumbledore was removed from office because of the attacks on students. The issue for the Ministry was student safety. While they may have given Dumbledore permission to hire Remus...trusting that Dumbledore would keep him under control...once the Shrieking Shack incident happened, student safety was once again brought into question, and the Ministry would have no choice but to act.

I'm quite sure Albus would have been willing to stand by his decision to hire Remus. We can, based on past actions, see where that would have led. Dumbledore would most likely have lost his job along with Remus. The Ministry removed him once, and they'd do it again (particularly with the added pressure from parents). Remus feels a great deal of loyalty and devotion towards Albus. By leaving, he prevented a showdown that would have been disasterous to all the Hogwarts students, including Harry. Remus put his own interests below that of everyone else involved. That was not cowardice...it was courage, and loyalty, and devotion.

Now Sirius, on the other hand...he also left. You can try to justify it by saying..."oh it's different...he was a wanted criminal"...but, whatever his reasons, he still left. He was not always near Harry...he was in hiding. Yes, he travelled to Hogwarts to be near Harry. But so what? What good did he do? He, despite being Harry's godfather, hasn't actually done anything at all helpful.

*takes a deep breath* Whew! Sorry for such a long post...I had a lot to say.

Muggle Joined: Feb 01, 2002 Posts: 12